ca.portal.admin

Working relational database with IDMS

Discussion created by ca.portal.admin on Jul 12, 2005
Hi Everyone:

We just start a project defining a new relational database using IDMS.
We are new with a project like this using IDMS. Does anybody want to
share experiencies, tips with us ??? Does anybody want to share a cobol
program, just to learn how to codify a typical cobol program using sql
and IDMS ??
Any comments ???? Actually we are on 14.1 and we will move to 16.0 sp1
tis weekend maybe.

Thanks.

Javier S.

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Re: Relational database on IDMS
"Javier, you may always take contact with me.
We have doing a poc with IDMS/SQL (the result was positive). IDMS/SQL is for
us a real relational database, and not a layer on the network database.
We use PL/1 for the batch-jobs and Java with JDBC-driver type 4 (IDMS r16
sp2) for the online transactions. (Via IBM Websphere)
For the reporting we are using BO (Business Object) via the ODBC driver. (
here we use the reporter also on the network database with the SQL option).

Now we will start a poc to replicate the data from the network databases in
the new IDMS/SQL databases, and from IDMS/SQL to the network Databases.
Next study is to set up the security in a IDMS/SQL database with ACF2.
And also to promote the software from development into production. ( with
IDMS/SQL you have to work with RCM and ACM's dictionary modules).

Luc

Luc De Naeyer
Corporate System Database Administrator for IDMS
Infoco (InformaticsColruyt)
T : +32 2 360 10 40
Luc.denaeyer@infoco.be

----- Original Message -----
From: ""javier sotela"" <jsotela@HOTMAIL.COM>
To: <IDMS-L@listserv.iuassn.com>
Sent: woensdag 13 juli 2005 20:53
Subject: Relational database on IDMS

Hi everyone:

I will repeat my question with different words, we are trying to define a
new database usinga real relational database inside IDMS. We want to know
about any experiencies using real relational idms databases, any comments,
tips, etc that can help us to start with our project. We pretend to make a
proof of concept, but I want to know how the people is delaing with Idms
relational databases. This will not a network database mapped to a
relationaldatabase, this will be a pure relational database. Any comments
???

TIA.

Javier S.

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Re: Relational database on IDMS
"Ok, I'll comment Javier. Many moons ago, actually when IDMS SQL first
came out, I was a dba at a company, which has since gone out of business
due to no fault of IDMS, we were one of the first, if not THE first site
to use IDMS-SQL. That's both network derived, and native SQL. What we
learned is that there was a lot to learn. In fact it was the relational
dbms learning tool for our programmers. Some new apps were hosted on
SUN boxes later using another RDBMS, but most relational concepts still
applied. What was interesting to me is the IDMS-SQL was as easy to
manage from a system/operational perspective as good ole IDMS. No
phantoms tying the system in knots, with a cast of thousands in
conference calls sratching their heads. The IDMS tools and controls
were still useful to manage the central version. What we learned is
that network derived relational databases could be a challenge,
depending on the complexity of the network structure. SQL is a simple
animal, and some data types, like occurs, do not play well, if at all,
in the relational world. Also, the 'cursor' concept took some time for
our programmers to learn. They were all IDMS mainframe programmers and
used to getting from the database what they asked for. Of course SQL
gives you what it feels like returning, and it could be a ton of stuff
in the result set. 'Navigating' through the result set took some
different thinking. For the DBA, access paths and running statistics to
give the optimizer useful information is a full time job. Understanding
the optimizers decisions, often irrational to an IDMS dba, was another
full time job. We had a lot of problems with area sweeps, and of course
calc keys is a foreign concept to SQL. While we're on the subject of
'foreign', sets are considered 'views' in the network derived SQL world
with imbedded foreign keys. These could also be a challenge to access
within reasonable timeframes. If you plan on using network derived SQL,
then be careful and build a proof of concept application before making
any commitments. For purely relational databases I found IDMS a charm.
At the time there were not many application development tools that would
play with IDMS. We used Powerbuilder, and QBYX. CA helped us develop a
buyers decision applications that was a great hit with the business and
made them some decent profit for the christmas season. We did not get
into developing COBOL apps, but there were some utility programs that
were written.
At the time, there were few CA representatives knowledgable in SQL.
However, Cal Dominque and a couple of others did know their stuff and
were helpful to us. So we relied heavily on manuals and trial and
error. The manuals were sufficient to get the job done. From the
system side, there really wasn't much that needed to be done, except a
larger scratch area, and we ended up using a hyperspace. The app went
into production and behaved well like the normal IDMS application that
has good IDMS DBA's on staff. In other words, not the dramas and
lights outs that DB2 seems to dwell in.
If you need any specifics, I'll try to remember, however, this is nearly
ten years ago.
Go for it, IDMS-SQL needs and derseves some champions to make it shine.

Lutz Petzold


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Relational database on IDMS
"Hi everyone:

I will repeat my question with different words, we are trying to define a
new database usinga real relational database inside IDMS. We want to know
about any experiencies using real relational idms databases, any comments,
tips, etc that can help us to start with our project. We pretend to make a
proof of concept, but I want to know how the people is delaing with Idms
relational databases. This will not a network database mapped to a
relationaldatabase, this will be a pure relational database. Any comments
???

TIA.

Javier S.

_________________________________________________________________
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Questions about idms pure relational databases no 2.
"Hi Everyone:

I have been working with ""pure relational"" database with idms and I have
some questions:

1. I used the load utility to put some data in one table, I had to specify
any position in the database to fill it up, because when I use only the load
option into the table, althought the input record is 37 bytes, the load try
to use more than 50 bytes for any input record, no matter if I put the
sentence lrecl. The thing is, the table has defiened 37 bytes long, the
input data is 37 bytes long, but I couldn't use the command load into table
xxxx lrecl 37, why ????

2. After load data into the table I run a Print space and I noticed that the
record length is 68, althougth the size of the table is only 37 bytes. I
have defined on it the default index and the calc key, can somebody explain
me what are the 31 bytes aditionally defined ???

3. Is there any way to get table or schema information like using idmsrpts
schema option, with relational sql database in idms. With idmsrpts in a non
sql database we can see the size of any record, the space use for pointers
and indexes, but what about for sql ????

4. I saw that the default index is created in the same area that the data
area, and its look like the calc key is another index, what about
performance when we combine areas with data and indexes ???

5. For me is very difficult to think in a relational database with pointers,
its very difficult think in using linked indexes or constrains, its very
difficult for me think in broken chains in pointers in a relational
database, thats why I beleive I don't have to use any linked option, the
question is, not using linked option am I loosing a lot of performance ????

Well by now thats all, this have been a very interesting exercise, but I
beleive I need some information from people with more experience dealing
with SQL databases in IDMS.

Thanks.

Javier S.

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Re: Working relational database with IDMS
"Javier,

I'm not clear what your application function is, but have
you considered using called procedures, issued from JAVA, to
access and update non-SQL databases? We are close to
implementing a project which is web-enabling a portion of
our system. The JAVA programs call SQL procedures (mapless
dialogs) and COBOL Table Procedures to retrieve and update
the IDMS database. The performance is great because we can
control how the data is accessed. There is very little
learning curve on the IDMS side because the dialogs and
programs are regular IDMS with non SQL code. A procedure
record definition accompanies the dialog / program which
basically replaces the map record. If you are intered in
getting more information, I'd be happy to provide it. I'm a
big proponent of this solution because I've been able to use
existing code, thus making sure our web application
functions the same as exisitng IDMS dialogs and saving a
tremendous amount of development time. You do need to have
R16.0 to use the ADS SQL procedures.

Margaret


Margaret

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3985 During Startup of Release 16.0 SP2 (maximize Screen)
"Hello Everyone:

Has anyone seen this abort (U 3985) with IDMS Release 16.0 SP 2. The CV
comes all the way up but right after the Central Version Initialization Complete
message is issued it aborts with the U 3985? The new SVC has been installed
with CAIRIM, the Sysgen is pointing to the new SVC, the journals, log, run and
scr were formatted, all dictionary updates were made.

Here is a cut and paste of the SMP/E control cards for linking the startup
module, the usermod created by the install was used and the only change was to
the RHDCPARM and WTOEXIT:

//DISTLOAD DD DSN=DO.NOT.CHANGE.DISTLOAD,DISP=SHR
//SYSLMOD DD DSN=DO.NOT.CHANGE.LOADLIB,DISP=SHR
//SYSLIN DD *
INCLUDE DISTLOAD(TESTPARM)
INCLUDE DISTLOAD(RHDCOMWP)
INCLUDE DISTLOAD(RHDCOESA)
INCLUDE DISTLOAD(RHDCOMOC)
INCLUDE DISTLOAD(RHDCHPCS)
INCLUDE DISTLOAD(RHDCACHE)
INCLUDE DISTLOAD(RHDCOPTS)
INCLUDE DISTLOAD(TESTEXIT)
ENTRY STARTUP
NAME TESTDBCV(R)
/*
++SRC(TESTPARM) DISTLIB(DISTSRC) DISTMOD(DISTLOAD) TXLIB(PPOPTION).
++SRC(TESTEXIT) DISTLIB(DISTSRC) DISTMOD(DISTLOAD) TXLIB(PPOPTION).

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Re: 3985 During Startup of Release 16.0 SP2 (maximize Screen)
"Bill,

What is the name of the CV in the sysgen? The cvnumber?


Jim


Jim Rice
jlrice@southernco.com
ph (404) 506-4148
Fax (404) 506- 4870
SO Linc 2988/770.550.2988

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